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	<title>Comments on: Reduce the foreclosure rate by democratizing real estate brokerage</title>
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	<link>http://www.whytheheck.com/2008/11/20/add-5-to-the-value-of-every-home-by-reforming-real-estate-brokerage/</link>
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	<pubDate>Sun, 20 May 2012 12:26:38 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: donna</title>
		<link>http://www.whytheheck.com/2008/11/20/add-5-to-the-value-of-every-home-by-reforming-real-estate-brokerage/comment-page-1/#comment-893</link>
		<dc:creator>donna</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Aug 2009 17:00:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thinkoob.com/?p=13#comment-893</guid>
		<description>two observations:

(1) If I were paying my buy-side broker by the hour, I would see all the houses the first time myself, then bring him or her in for the final cut, nad pay a fee per showing and then an hourly fee for advice.  I did not get $15,000 worth of advice out of my buyer's broker, not even close

(2) I know the brokers are in cahoots sometimes because I saw a house that was not at all appropriate -- the master was not big enough for a king, which was one of my specs.  "My" broker said, "Oh, you can tear down this wall."  She was freinds with the listing broker.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>two observations:</p>
<p>(1) If I were paying my buy-side broker by the hour, I would see all the houses the first time myself, then bring him or her in for the final cut, nad pay a fee per showing and then an hourly fee for advice.  I did not get $15,000 worth of advice out of my buyer&#8217;s broker, not even close</p>
<p>(2) I know the brokers are in cahoots sometimes because I saw a house that was not at all appropriate &#8212; the master was not big enough for a king, which was one of my specs.  &#8220;My&#8221; broker said, &#8220;Oh, you can tear down this wall.&#8221;  She was freinds with the listing broker.</p>
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		<title>By: Thread on brokerage fees at ThinkOOB.com &#124; SmithAdams</title>
		<link>http://www.whytheheck.com/2008/11/20/add-5-to-the-value-of-every-home-by-reforming-real-estate-brokerage/comment-page-1/#comment-808</link>
		<dc:creator>Thread on brokerage fees at ThinkOOB.com &#124; SmithAdams</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 May 2009 15:58:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thinkoob.com/?p=13#comment-808</guid>
		<description>[...] commission fee model to the SmithAdams fee-for-service model, I thought you might be interested in this lively discussion about brokerage commissions at ThinkOOB.com. It&#8217;s great to see that we are not the only ones actively thinking about this [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] commission fee model to the SmithAdams fee-for-service model, I thought you might be interested in this lively discussion about brokerage commissions at ThinkOOB.com. It&#8217;s great to see that we are not the only ones actively thinking about this [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Nithi Vivatrat</title>
		<link>http://www.whytheheck.com/2008/11/20/add-5-to-the-value-of-every-home-by-reforming-real-estate-brokerage/comment-page-1/#comment-801</link>
		<dc:creator>Nithi Vivatrat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 May 2009 01:53:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thinkoob.com/?p=13#comment-801</guid>
		<description>I will state up-front that I am the founder and CEO of a fee-for-service real estate brokerage firm launched a few months ago.  It was fascinating to stumble across this lively discussion on a topic inherent to my work. 

First, I believe it is undeniable that the information advantage of the real estate broker over the consumer who does his or her homework has eroded significantly, due largely to the proliferation of online information sources.  &lt;a href="http://scienceblogs.com/clock/2008/10/information_vs_knowledge_vs_ex.php" rel="nofollow"&gt;Information, however, is not the same as expertise&lt;/a&gt;.  It takes context and skill to effectively sift, interpret, and transform that information into valuable insight.  In my opinion, this is exactly where a great real estate professional (say, someone like Will, who has contributed eloquently to this discussion) can and does add significant value – to leverage the experience of hundreds of real estate transactions to advise a client as to what is fair, normal, questionable, anomalous, unreasonable, etc. and guide the client during what can be an extremely stressful process.  Why did my partners and I hire lawyers when we sold our consulting company when we are perfectly capable of reading contracts?  Because we wanted the insight and guidance of a trusted advisor with the expertise garnered from hundreds of M&#38;A transactions that we didn’t have.

But this leads to my second point: how did we pay for that legal expertise?  &lt;em&gt;By the hour&lt;/em&gt;, based on the amount of services we consumed.  In real estate, however, the common value proposition is this: pay a set commission (say, 3%) for a black box of services.  Maybe you’ll get this service or that one, it depends on what happens or with whom you work – but in any case the fee stays the same.  This is fairly anomalous in professional services: your accountant doesn’t calculate the fees to do your tax return based on a percentage of your net worth or your earnings that year – you pay based on the amount and value of the time spent. 

I take issue with two points that Will made previously in this thread: that “the commission model also successfully separates the wheat from the chaff,” and that an hourly model would result in “mediocre or inexperienced key-turners sticking around in the business for longer periods of time.”  To the first, I assert that it would serve us well to differentiate between “good” agents and “economically successful” agents.  We tend to conflate the two concepts, largely because transaction volume is the scoreboard most commonly used to rank agents – you tend to hear terms like “top producer” and “million dollar clubs”, which are not necessarily the same as “agent who provided the best customer service” or “agent that negotiated the hardest to get his/her client the best deal.”  The commission model favors those who can market themselves most effectively and close the most transactions, not necessarily those who provide the best service or fight the hardest and longest for their client – there might be some correlation, but they are not the same thing.

Similarly, I disagree with the argument that the hourly model is friendlier to mediocrity than the commission model.  To the contrary, I contend that consumers paying out of pocket and receiving unsatisfactory service will in short order terminate that relationship rather than continue paying for it.  When consumers are not paying for the service along the way, on the other hand, tolerance for poor or mediocre service is greater.  There’s a false perception that one is “getting the service for free,” and people are sometimes made to feel “guilty” for terminating a relationship with an agent.  This dynamic is exacerbated when a consumer is working with a friend or relative – a common occurrence.  For these reasons, I believe a fee-for-service model will tend to improve the quality of service by prompting consumers to be more discriminating.

My final point is this: if we consumers want change, we need to own up to our part of it.  We have to step back, honestly do our own individual risk/reward calculations, and live by them.  For example, Al and others express a desire earlier in this thread to be able to represent themselves, at least on the buy side.  My firm will help you make an offer on a property for a flat fee as well as assist in negotiations as needed.  We help FSBO sellers with only those services they need and choose to pay for.  Clients who work with us, though, have to be willing to pay our fees on a non-contingent basis.  The decision as to what makes sense for you is largely based on your certainty that a transaction will occur combined with the potential savings in our model, compared against the amount of fees you know you will pay in a commission model but only if a transaction occurs.  In case you’re wondering: people are making this calculation and do choose our fee-for-service model.

With that in mind, I have no expectation that the fee-for-service model will replace the traditional commission model.  I believe both models can and will co-exist – just as you can hire a lawyer on retainer OR on a contingency basis.  The choice should be up to the consumer.

Thanks for reading – I appreciate this opportunity to present my point of view, and I look forward to continuing a frank exchange on this topic.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I will state up-front that I am the founder and CEO of a fee-for-service real estate brokerage firm launched a few months ago.  It was fascinating to stumble across this lively discussion on a topic inherent to my work. </p>
<p>First, I believe it is undeniable that the information advantage of the real estate broker over the consumer who does his or her homework has eroded significantly, due largely to the proliferation of online information sources.  <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/clock/2008/10/information_vs_knowledge_vs_ex.php" rel="nofollow">Information, however, is not the same as expertise</a>.  It takes context and skill to effectively sift, interpret, and transform that information into valuable insight.  In my opinion, this is exactly where a great real estate professional (say, someone like Will, who has contributed eloquently to this discussion) can and does add significant value – to leverage the experience of hundreds of real estate transactions to advise a client as to what is fair, normal, questionable, anomalous, unreasonable, etc. and guide the client during what can be an extremely stressful process.  Why did my partners and I hire lawyers when we sold our consulting company when we are perfectly capable of reading contracts?  Because we wanted the insight and guidance of a trusted advisor with the expertise garnered from hundreds of M&amp;A transactions that we didn’t have.</p>
<p>But this leads to my second point: how did we pay for that legal expertise?  <em>By the hour</em>, based on the amount of services we consumed.  In real estate, however, the common value proposition is this: pay a set commission (say, 3%) for a black box of services.  Maybe you’ll get this service or that one, it depends on what happens or with whom you work – but in any case the fee stays the same.  This is fairly anomalous in professional services: your accountant doesn’t calculate the fees to do your tax return based on a percentage of your net worth or your earnings that year – you pay based on the amount and value of the time spent. </p>
<p>I take issue with two points that Will made previously in this thread: that “the commission model also successfully separates the wheat from the chaff,” and that an hourly model would result in “mediocre or inexperienced key-turners sticking around in the business for longer periods of time.”  To the first, I assert that it would serve us well to differentiate between “good” agents and “economically successful” agents.  We tend to conflate the two concepts, largely because transaction volume is the scoreboard most commonly used to rank agents – you tend to hear terms like “top producer” and “million dollar clubs”, which are not necessarily the same as “agent who provided the best customer service” or “agent that negotiated the hardest to get his/her client the best deal.”  The commission model favors those who can market themselves most effectively and close the most transactions, not necessarily those who provide the best service or fight the hardest and longest for their client – there might be some correlation, but they are not the same thing.</p>
<p>Similarly, I disagree with the argument that the hourly model is friendlier to mediocrity than the commission model.  To the contrary, I contend that consumers paying out of pocket and receiving unsatisfactory service will in short order terminate that relationship rather than continue paying for it.  When consumers are not paying for the service along the way, on the other hand, tolerance for poor or mediocre service is greater.  There’s a false perception that one is “getting the service for free,” and people are sometimes made to feel “guilty” for terminating a relationship with an agent.  This dynamic is exacerbated when a consumer is working with a friend or relative – a common occurrence.  For these reasons, I believe a fee-for-service model will tend to improve the quality of service by prompting consumers to be more discriminating.</p>
<p>My final point is this: if we consumers want change, we need to own up to our part of it.  We have to step back, honestly do our own individual risk/reward calculations, and live by them.  For example, Al and others express a desire earlier in this thread to be able to represent themselves, at least on the buy side.  My firm will help you make an offer on a property for a flat fee as well as assist in negotiations as needed.  We help FSBO sellers with only those services they need and choose to pay for.  Clients who work with us, though, have to be willing to pay our fees on a non-contingent basis.  The decision as to what makes sense for you is largely based on your certainty that a transaction will occur combined with the potential savings in our model, compared against the amount of fees you know you will pay in a commission model but only if a transaction occurs.  In case you’re wondering: people are making this calculation and do choose our fee-for-service model.</p>
<p>With that in mind, I have no expectation that the fee-for-service model will replace the traditional commission model.  I believe both models can and will co-exist – just as you can hire a lawyer on retainer OR on a contingency basis.  The choice should be up to the consumer.</p>
<p>Thanks for reading – I appreciate this opportunity to present my point of view, and I look forward to continuing a frank exchange on this topic.</p>
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		<title>By: alewis</title>
		<link>http://www.whytheheck.com/2008/11/20/add-5-to-the-value-of-every-home-by-reforming-real-estate-brokerage/comment-page-1/#comment-771</link>
		<dc:creator>alewis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Apr 2009 16:14:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thinkoob.com/?p=13#comment-771</guid>
		<description>Joel Stern, jstern2@state.gov, would like to be contacted by anyone wanting more information on this cartel and its inherent conflict of interest.  He is probably the most knowledgeable person in the country about it and has a lot of links and data which he is veyr happy to share</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joel Stern, <a href="mailto:jstern2@state.gov">jstern2@state.gov</a>, would like to be contacted by anyone wanting more information on this cartel and its inherent conflict of interest.  He is probably the most knowledgeable person in the country about it and has a lot of links and data which he is veyr happy to share</p>
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		<title>By: Will</title>
		<link>http://www.whytheheck.com/2008/11/20/add-5-to-the-value-of-every-home-by-reforming-real-estate-brokerage/comment-page-1/#comment-717</link>
		<dc:creator>Will</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Mar 2009 13:25:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thinkoob.com/?p=13#comment-717</guid>
		<description>Thanks for reading my comments.  I did write too long of a reply and don't blame Al for editing down, but I think I might have agreed that an hourly rate would be a fair alternate choice for a pay structure, in fact I would often desire that acting as a buyer's agent, as I would hate to see what my commission breaks down per hour for some slow-moving or non-buying buyers. But I have no idea where this idea that retaining an agent is a requirement on either the buying or selling side. I see plenty of sellers using "entry-only" for-fee MLS listing services for owners selling their own place. A few of them do well. But most would have done better using an agent. The reason is that if they are successful in selling their own homes, it is usually only a function of having an unusually low price, as there is almost always very little marketing going on. Thus, they limit the actual pool of buyers seeing their homes. My first act in a listing it to get all the brokers in their for a preview. Most FSBOs don't or can't do so. So the sellers end up doing more work and/or dropping the price to the point that the house sticks out and can no longer be overlooked. Anyway, my main points are, there is no requirement that I know that you have to use a broker. Knowing what I do, I would honestly still do so if I were a seller and I would build the commission into the price just like 95% of the other sellers. And if I was a buyer, there is no doubt I would use a commission-based agent. There is no extra fee to have a good buyer's agent who will be paid out of the offered cooperating commission. It is also a myth that a good buyer's agent will want to just quickly get "the sale" to get the commission. As I depend mostly on referrals, I would much rather have a satisfied client that I know if going to buy eventually than push them into the first house we see. I don't know buyers would want to pay by the hour and thus feel more pressure to buy faster. The current structure allows them to take their time and the agent is usually satisfied, knowing that he/she will be paid upon closing one or another house.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for reading my comments.  I did write too long of a reply and don&#8217;t blame Al for editing down, but I think I might have agreed that an hourly rate would be a fair alternate choice for a pay structure, in fact I would often desire that acting as a buyer&#8217;s agent, as I would hate to see what my commission breaks down per hour for some slow-moving or non-buying buyers. But I have no idea where this idea that retaining an agent is a requirement on either the buying or selling side. I see plenty of sellers using &#8220;entry-only&#8221; for-fee MLS listing services for owners selling their own place. A few of them do well. But most would have done better using an agent. The reason is that if they are successful in selling their own homes, it is usually only a function of having an unusually low price, as there is almost always very little marketing going on. Thus, they limit the actual pool of buyers seeing their homes. My first act in a listing it to get all the brokers in their for a preview. Most FSBOs don&#8217;t or can&#8217;t do so. So the sellers end up doing more work and/or dropping the price to the point that the house sticks out and can no longer be overlooked. Anyway, my main points are, there is no requirement that I know that you have to use a broker. Knowing what I do, I would honestly still do so if I were a seller and I would build the commission into the price just like 95% of the other sellers. And if I was a buyer, there is no doubt I would use a commission-based agent. There is no extra fee to have a good buyer&#8217;s agent who will be paid out of the offered cooperating commission. It is also a myth that a good buyer&#8217;s agent will want to just quickly get &#8220;the sale&#8221; to get the commission. As I depend mostly on referrals, I would much rather have a satisfied client that I know if going to buy eventually than push them into the first house we see. I don&#8217;t know buyers would want to pay by the hour and thus feel more pressure to buy faster. The current structure allows them to take their time and the agent is usually satisfied, knowing that he/she will be paid upon closing one or another house.</p>
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		<title>By: alewis</title>
		<link>http://www.whytheheck.com/2008/11/20/add-5-to-the-value-of-every-home-by-reforming-real-estate-brokerage/comment-page-1/#comment-716</link>
		<dc:creator>alewis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Mar 2009 13:43:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thinkoob.com/?p=13#comment-716</guid>
		<description>If I were to choose a broker, I must admit I would choose Will.  THis is an eloquent sales presentation he has written.  The economics are questionable, like the suggestion that making licensing harder and minting fewer brokers would reduce the commission.  But as long as Will is sticking to what it takes to be a good broker, I would find his email address in my system and retain him if I ever needed a broker.

However, my point is that I may not need a broker.  I may prefer to represent myself, at least on the buy-side.  Picking a broker should be an option, not a requirement.  Or I might prefer to pick Will but say I'd like to do a lot of it myself, may I retain you by the hour?  

Ultimately, that's all this posting was about -- creating options and having brokers/consultants sell their services based on merit rather than de facto requirement.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If I were to choose a broker, I must admit I would choose Will.  THis is an eloquent sales presentation he has written.  The economics are questionable, like the suggestion that making licensing harder and minting fewer brokers would reduce the commission.  But as long as Will is sticking to what it takes to be a good broker, I would find his email address in my system and retain him if I ever needed a broker.</p>
<p>However, my point is that I may not need a broker.  I may prefer to represent myself, at least on the buy-side.  Picking a broker should be an option, not a requirement.  Or I might prefer to pick Will but say I&#8217;d like to do a lot of it myself, may I retain you by the hour?  </p>
<p>Ultimately, that&#8217;s all this posting was about &#8212; creating options and having brokers/consultants sell their services based on merit rather than de facto requirement.</p>
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		<title>By: thinkoobfan</title>
		<link>http://www.whytheheck.com/2008/11/20/add-5-to-the-value-of-every-home-by-reforming-real-estate-brokerage/comment-page-1/#comment-715</link>
		<dc:creator>thinkoobfan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Mar 2009 11:19:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thinkoob.com/?p=13#comment-715</guid>
		<description>Will makes some good points but none of them address the central point that Al makes:  that we shouldn't be ede facto required to play in this game to buy or sell a house.  If an agent is good he can jsutify his own services  against the alternative of doing it himself.  If I was forced to choose an agent, I'd choose Will based on his comments, but I don't want to be forced to choose an agent.  I want to have choices of consultants, self-brokering -- all that stuff.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Will makes some good points but none of them address the central point that Al makes:  that we shouldn&#8217;t be ede facto required to play in this game to buy or sell a house.  If an agent is good he can jsutify his own services  against the alternative of doing it himself.  If I was forced to choose an agent, I&#8217;d choose Will based on his comments, but I don&#8217;t want to be forced to choose an agent.  I want to have choices of consultants, self-brokering &#8212; all that stuff.</p>
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		<title>By: kathyorsue</title>
		<link>http://www.whytheheck.com/2008/11/20/add-5-to-the-value-of-every-home-by-reforming-real-estate-brokerage/comment-page-1/#comment-679</link>
		<dc:creator>kathyorsue</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Mar 2009 00:27:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thinkoob.com/?p=13#comment-679</guid>
		<description>used to be a broker and these women (yes, mostly women) are SHARKS. They don’t “represent” anyone but themselves. They are not trying to get anyone the best price. They are trying to get commissions for themselves. This proposal is long overdue.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>used to be a broker and these women (yes, mostly women) are SHARKS. They don’t “represent” anyone but themselves. They are not trying to get anyone the best price. They are trying to get commissions for themselves. This proposal is long overdue.</p>
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		<title>By: Will</title>
		<link>http://www.whytheheck.com/2008/11/20/add-5-to-the-value-of-every-home-by-reforming-real-estate-brokerage/comment-page-1/#comment-667</link>
		<dc:creator>Will</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Mar 2009 12:29:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thinkoob.com/?p=13#comment-667</guid>
		<description>Carljr, the buyer does write half the check, whether they realize it or not. Brokers are paid from the proceeds of the sale. It just happens to be on the seller's side of the HUD statement. But the commission is built into the price. If brokers are omitted from the transaction, prices might drop to reflect it, but everyone else would be doing the work, the amount of which in a typical RE listing and transaction seems to be underestimated by many posting rants against RE brokers. BTW, there is also this myth the RE agents are one of the main reasons for the RE crash. I suggest people start with the macro -- the securitized debt created with chopped up mortgages, the insurance agencies -- and work their way down to the micro, mortgage companies and brokers who wrote the insane interest-only and subprime mortgages on which the macro was based. We simply didn't see much of these in stable towns. This is no accident.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Carljr, the buyer does write half the check, whether they realize it or not. Brokers are paid from the proceeds of the sale. It just happens to be on the seller&#8217;s side of the HUD statement. But the commission is built into the price. If brokers are omitted from the transaction, prices might drop to reflect it, but everyone else would be doing the work, the amount of which in a typical RE listing and transaction seems to be underestimated by many posting rants against RE brokers. BTW, there is also this myth the RE agents are one of the main reasons for the RE crash. I suggest people start with the macro &#8212; the securitized debt created with chopped up mortgages, the insurance agencies &#8212; and work their way down to the micro, mortgage companies and brokers who wrote the insane interest-only and subprime mortgages on which the macro was based. We simply didn&#8217;t see much of these in stable towns. This is no accident.</p>
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		<title>By: Carljr</title>
		<link>http://www.whytheheck.com/2008/11/20/add-5-to-the-value-of-every-home-by-reforming-real-estate-brokerage/comment-page-1/#comment-647</link>
		<dc:creator>Carljr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Mar 2009 15:35:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thinkoob.com/?p=13#comment-647</guid>
		<description>All you'd have to do is make the buyer write half the check and that half fo the commision would crash within days</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>All you&#8217;d have to do is make the buyer write half the check and that half fo the commision would crash within days</p>
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